Interviewer

Firstly. Yeah. Thank you for your time and thank you for considering contributing to this project. And yeah, we, we really want to find out more about the involvement of the 2.5 million soldiers in World War 2, perhaps of Indian soldiers, perhaps, perhaps in World War One as well. We wanted to know if you had any particular insights or stories you could share with us, maybe any notable. Battles or any? Yeah, any information that you think would be helpful.

Interviewee

OK. Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm and I'm very happy to be a part of this project because I think the contribution of the Indian Armed Forces in general and the Indian Army in particular is something that's not very well. Known to the Allied victories both in the 1st as well as the Second World Wars, and as you're aware of course in World War 2, the Indian Army had expanded to two and a half million men, each one of them was a volunteer. So, it was the largest volunteer army in the history of human conflict. During the First World War as well, we had 1.5 millions, 5 million Indians who served or whom I believe 1.4 million served overseas, out outside the boundaries of India. And in both these conflicts, the role of. The Indian army was very, very. Thickened and not just the armed forces, even of India, as a country, because without the economic support, without the very the territorial use of India as a springboard for allied offensives. Particularly in the Middle East and further in the Far East in Southeast Asia, and they just would not have been possible. So, so India had a very significant role to play in. This in World War 2, the very first Indian contingent that leaves Indian soil was force K6, which went on to serve with the BEF and was later evacuated from Dunkirk. This consisted of. Four animal transport companies and one of these was captured and three of them, as I mentioned, were where we evacuated and continued to serve out the rest of the war in the Scottish Islands. Apart from these, we had contingents that or rather. Forces that served in East Africa, in Somaliland, Eritrea. The Sudan and in North Africa, some of the major battles during that campaign to defeat Ramil. The bulk of the Indian troops were rather the bulk of the Commonwealth troops were Indians and also the end of the Africa core. In Tunisia, Indian divisions were present over there. Subsequently, of course, from 1943 onwards we had three Indian divisions serving in Italy and they served all the way from, you know, the landings at Salerno right till the end. And I think at that peak we had about 50,000 men serving. In in Italy as well, but by far I think by far the most. A significant campaign as far as India was concerned was on the Burma Front before that. Of course, when the Japanese invaded various countries in in the beginning of the war, rather in. 4142 we had Indian contingents at Hong Kong. There was a very significant Indian presence in Singapore, Malaya and a lot of Indian soldiers became prisoners of war at the surrender of Singh. So subsequently, as you are aware, the Allied forces were pushed out from Burma, so that retreat from Burma again hit us quite badly. But later on, under field Marshall, or rather at that time. When Bill Slim the there was a turnaround, there was this a huge training campaign that was undertaken and India became literally the springboard for victory. And one of the three major battles of the war, the other two being the siege of Stalingrad, and I think the battle for the Atlantic. The third was the battle for Kohima, which are considered to be turning points in in the Second World War and the Battle of Kohima, of course. Is where the Japanese advance to the West is finally halted and turned around, and that happens on Indian soil. Yeah. So this is and then of course after that we had Indian divisions involved in the defeat of the Japanese and finally in deployment as part of the British Commonwealth occupation force in Japan in 194647. There were a large number of Victoria Crosses that were awarded during the war to the to Indian soldiers. One of the things that we must remember, of course, is that this is the army of undivided India that we're talking about. So that comprises today. All the countries of independent countries of Pakistan, of India, Bangladesh, Nepal and to some extent Burma as well on the Burma separated from India. Oh, Myanmar separated from India in the mid 30s. UM. So, Yeah, I think as you would imagine, there's been a India had a very significant role as I've already mentioned, to play in this conflict. At the end of the war or shortly after the end of the war, of course, India was partitioned, and the Indian Army was partitioned as well. It was divided on a basis of 1 is to three between India and Pakistan, so the regiment. That had fought in these battles or in these theatres were split up between the two countries right in World War 2. Again. Oh, sorry. In World War One we had for the first time in Indian contingent being deployed in France and Flanders. You had. Indian soldiers. Landing in in Marseille in September and October 1914 and then later on go on to. Help plug the holes in the line, because by that time the British Expeditionary Force was on its last legs, they'd already been in the field for over 3 months. They weren't. Equipped or geared to meet the German onslaught. And it was the timely arrival of these Indian divisions that today has recognised as being instrumental in having stopped the German advance towards the channel ports and of course the Germans had broken through.

Interviewer

Yeah.

Interviewee

And the history of the war and the history of the world would have been very different. So yeah, so there is again, I think credit that is due to the Indians for that. Indian Army also served in the campaign at Gallipoli, which as you're aware today is considered to be the serving as the kind of the cornerstone of the national identity of modern Australia and New Zealand and Turkey. For that matter, and we had a very small but very hard hitting Indian Expeditionary Force that served in Gallipoli, Indian served in East Africa and. Just as in World War 2, the Indian Army had a huge role to play on the Burma Front in the First World War. It was Mesopotamia, so the campaign in Mesopotamia and later on in Palestine was to a very large extent carried out by Indian. Divisions Indian soldiers. We also had soldiers serving in in in both the wars in northern Iran in in World War Two it was a thing called Pi 4. And by that is BA I, so Persia and Iraq force. And there was a large Indian contingent that was positioned over there. As to meet the eventual in case of an eventuality of the Germans breaking through the Caucasus because, as you are aware, you know they were advancing westward through Russia and then the fear was that they would come through the Caucasus and. Through Iran and Afghanistan and attack India, so this force was kept there to prevent that. And while they were there, they also helped carry out what were known as the aid to Russia. Convoys at a very critical time. In the war and these Indian Army Service Corps, GPT transport companies were driving these. The 10 tonne Mac trucks delivering critical aid to the Red Army because all their supply routes were cut off from the West. So these are some of the things that the Indian Army was involved in in the Indian Air Force. Also, was a fairly fledgling institute organisation when the war broke out, it had been formed in 1932 and when the war started. There was only one squadron flying Lysanders and there were a few coastal defence flights which flew outdated warp patis hearts Blenheims, but during the course of the war it expanded to over 10 squadrons, again mainly seeing. Action on the Western Front and I think they ended the war with 21 DSC's and one bar to the DFC. Very recently you have finished commemorating 80 years of VE Day. Now the main campaign in Europe. Strictly speaking, Indian troops were not involved in other than in Italy. We weren't part of the D-Day landings, but there were a few Indians. Who did take part in the D-Day operations? Almost all of them were serving with the RAF. One of them, Jumbo Majumdar, got a bar to his DFC, flying typhoons and reconnaissance. Questions on the fellas gap, which he brought back vital information which helped the allies plan these landings. Yeah, I think that's it.

Interviewer

Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. And what do you think sort of motivated these soldiers to want to fight for Britain or fight against the axes? What do you think of the motivation?

Interviewee

Well. See in in India there is a long tradition of soldiering and the regimental system was a very strong motivating factor. It's a very strong institution then as it is now, and that would have been the motivating factor. For the soldiers, of course, was. You know, you fight for the honour of your regiment. You fight for the honour of your clan. You fight for, for your comrades. And there was, of course, as the war progresses, there was an increasing demand from the. Indian political leaders for independence for India at the time of the First World War, Mahatma Gandhi had. Had and mainstream political opinion had largely supported the war effort because they felt that in order to get greater political autonomy, India must stand by Britain in her hour of need. And so therefore, they said, we must go and fight along with the Britain. At the end, during the war, there were certain promises that were made which were then not kept at the end of that conflict and that throws this switch from the demand for home rule or dominion status, which is what they were demanding at the outset to a demand for complete independence. And during the Second World War, of course, the Viceroy announces that India is at war without. Taking the Indian political leaders into confidence and this creates a huge crisis within the within India and increasingly the countries like the United States were saying, you are asking. India to fight for freedom and democracy while you're denying the same to. Them so they wanted an America was putting considerable pressure on Britain to grant India its independence, which Britain was steadfast was steadily refusing to do because largely because. The Prime Minister at that time, Sir Winston Churchill, was very opposed to Indian independence. I think he realised that if India became independent, it would mean the end of Britain's global. Influence so. However, that notwithstanding, the India's political leaders did unequivocally support the fight against fascism and against authoritarianism. So they, they said. We are very happy. To fight against these forces but give us our independence. So there is, particularly in World War Two there is there is this tension between the political demands from India and what is being demanded of it militarily? That notwithstanding, as I said, India still had a very, very, very significant role to play in the Allied victory.

Interviewer

And then definitely, yeah. And that's it. I I didn't understand that it was a sort of big factor for independence as well. So that's very interesting to hear.

Interviewee

Yeah, yeah. And then of course, you have other than the Indian army, you have the Indian state forces. Should I hand over to my friend Tony as well now you can.

Interviewer

That's very interesting. Yeah. You're welcome, too. You're welcome, too. Thank you, Sir.

Interviewee

Alright, OK. So over to Tony.

Interviewee (Tony)

Might be easier where runner was. Yeah. Hi. Good afternoon to you. I'm Tony McClenaghan.

Interviewer

Good afternoon. Very nice to meet you and thank you for contributing to this project too.

Interviewee (Tony)

Pleasure. Thank you so. What? What do you want to ask me about the Indian state forces?

Interviewer

And yeah, that would be interesting to hear about the Indian state forces or any information you have about them, yeah.

Interviewee (Tony)

Yeah. Well, we, I mean all this goes back to the late 1880s, which is when someone decided that maybe it was time the princely states made a contribution to the defence of India. And so they looked at it and as a result of that, they set up what was called the Imperial Service Troops scheme IST. And this was still going when the First World War broke out. They had deployed couple of times before the war. They'd gone to China in 1900 and things like that. They'd gone into the northwest frontier. Yeah, but on the outbreak of the First World War, all of the rulers and the there were 572. I think it was princely semi independent, princely states. But of those only about 48 to 50 maintained armed forces that fitted into this scheme. Where they were. Trained and equipped to an extent that they could deploy in support of the empire if asked to do so. And at the beginning of the First World War, virtually all the princes offered their own services as well as those of their armies, and by the end of the First World War, some 22,000 of these Imperial Service troops had been deployed overseas, and they lost. Just round about 1600 in either killed in action, died of wounds, died of disease. Of those, I still maintain that there are at least 48 who are not commemorated anywhere and we now know from the Commonwealth Law Graves Commission there is a problem in or there was a policy decision made in India during the First World War. But those who died within India, of whatever cause, would not be accorded will grow status.

And so we know of people who are shipped back to India for medical treatment from theatres like East Africa, where the Imperial Service troops served in quite large numbers. But if they died for their wounds once they got back to India, they weren't accorded war grave status. So they're not recognised anywhere. They don't appear on any memorial. But yes, they did serve with some distinction overseas. They weren't as well trained, certainly at the outset as the Indian Army, and they weren't necessarily as well equipped. Various faults in the system had led to the equipment, things not being kept up to standard. Nevertheless, they improved quickly. At the beginning of the war, and there was some note. All I think successes there was, for example, towards the end of the war in September 1918, two of the cavalry units from Mysore and Jodhpur charged the town of Haifa. Now in Israel, this was an armed town and it was said of them afterwards. By one of the senior generals. You know, this is the first time that cavalry have taken an armed town at the gallop. And it was a very significant victory and it led eventually to a memorial to those people being created, which was then replicated in Delhi, where it still stands today. The team Marty Memorial is now used by the Indian cavalry as their memorial, but it was put up to commemorate. The cavalry forces of the Imperial Service troops who served in the Middle East so job or Mysore, Hyderabad and then a number of others. Patiala who were there as well. And they also served in in Europe the job pool answers, for example, went to France at the beginning, as Rama were saying earlier, and they stayed there until the early part of 1918, when they then redeployed to the Middle East and then got involved in things like Haifa and Palestine. So they did make a significant. Contribution, it was said of the Bikaner Camel Corps, the Kangaroo Sala, who served in Egypt until the imperial. Camel Corps was formed of troops of Britain, Australia, New Zealand, the only camel unit was that from Buccaneer and it was said that no post was complete without his Buccaneer detachment, so they served with distinction in in a number of theatres, and it's on the First World War. But I've so far primarily concentrated my efforts of the Second World War. I can't give you numbers, but I can think of and they weren't as quick to be deployed overseas as they were in the First World War. But when war was the Indian army, it took a while before deployments took place, and but nevertheless Indian, by this time, what would? Being called Imperial Service troops became known as Indian State Forces. That was because of reorganisation after the First World War to correct some of the problems that arisen. So Indian state forces were deployed to Mali. Here and a number of the battalions were captured and held by the Japanese one, I suppose, remarkable man captain of Mahmud Khan Durrani at the ball. Poor State forces, who withstood some pretty horrendous torture. By the Japanese and was awarded the George Cross. The only one to the Indian state forces. They won no Victoria Crosses, but they did win a number of other gallantry awards. And during the Second World War, Rana mentioned about the Indian army in Italy. One of the particularly effective units there was the NABA Ackal infantry, who thought that they were there at the beginning and they fought their way all the way up Italy and they came out with 12 military medals.

Interviewer

Wow.

Interviewee (Tony)

And a number of military crosses to their officers. So they fought with distinction. They fought well, and they earned a good reputation. And then, of course, in Burma, so quite a number of Indian State Force troops were deployed into Burma. In the Second World War as well. I think given the sort of background and the limited training and the limited equipment that had been foisted on them before the outbreak of the First World War and then some of the changes made between the wars, their service was to be commended. And certainly to be commemorated, their losses were just as severe and felt just as keenly by their families as they would have been by the families of the Indian Army and in the Navy and Air Force.

Interviewer

Yeah. Thank. Thank you again, Sir. Thank you that's fantastic, Oh, sorry, I've just got 2 questions. One of them is.

Through the research that we've done so far, we've found that a lot of the volunteers came from Punjab and Rajasthan and we're just wondering if. You would have any reason as to why that would be?

Interviewee

Yeah. So more than Rajasthan, it was a Punjab undivided Punjab is obviously today the state of Punjab State of Haryana, state of Himachal Pradesh in India and of course Western Punjab or Pakistani Punjab as well. The British had. From the about the 1870s onwards, they had devised a system whereby they there were certain communities that were deemed to be martial races, who whom they then confined their recruiting efforts so before 1857, which was the great uprising in India in the recruitment was largely from the Indo Gangetic plains, which were our. Are central India and they comprise mainly Brahmins, Rajputs and Muslims from that that region but. After the uprising, because the bulk of the soldiers from the Bengal army who came from the that from the Indo Gangetic plane, they had mutiny. So the recruitment patterns then shifted further to the West and northwest. So you have the Punjab and the Northwest frontier and Garewal. These are the areas that get included and to certain extent Rajasthan as well. So it's largely because of this martial races theory and the fact that the recruits are now, you know, they want taller, taller men and fairer men as compared to farther South. Through the soldiers from Madras or South India, the Madras Presidency, as it was the. Not that they were in any sense in or in any way inferior. It's just that they tended to be slightly on the darker and shorter side, so therefore recruitment was kind of pushed up to the Northwest frontier or the northwest.

Interviewer

Yes, and thank you for that. And my other question was what long like what post war effect do you think that The Second World War had on India.

Interviewee

Oh well both the wars had, I mean, affected India again quite a lot. You know, wars are always a catalyst for change, but as far as World War 2 was concerned that well, I would say that the. The main effect on India was that it hastened the end of the British Raj because of the expectations that were raised amongst People by their participation in this war effort and as I mentioned earlier, the tensions that existed between the Indian political leaders and the colonial authorities, they were really speaking, brought to a head. And it led to independence. But another legacy of the war and an unfortunate one, in my view, was that it also led to partition. And that's that is a story in itself, but. But I would say these are the 2 main legacies as far as India is concerned, directly linked to the Second World War. And if the war had not happened, then I'd. I think I feel we would not have had partition and there's a very strong possibility that independents would. As well have got delayed quite a bit.

Interviewer

Thank you, Sir. Thank you very much for your answers and for the extra insights that you've given us it'll be very useful for the project, I'm sure.