Deepinder: My Grandfather was involved in going to Iran when they had that history, when they had the big conference between the American President Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, and the Indian Army, the Sikhs, the bodyguard. They did this sort of security there. I've got some pictures, not of Him, but of that regiment. Then he went through, I think, the Middle East and Egypt, and then to Italy. And then he spent some time in, I think, some sort of Egypt and Palestine area after the war, then came back to India. Yeah, quite a lot of activity, yeah. 

Muskaan: And what part of India was he from? Was it Punjab?  

D: Punjab? Yeah.  

M: And do you know what area of Punjab it was? 

D: Yeah, so Amritsar is the big nearest city, yes, yeah, yeah. 

M: Would you know the name of the exact town? 

D: yeah, so my mum's still with me. So, it's the village is called Geo, geo bala it's in that sort of Amritsar sort of district.  

M: Yes, yeah, that's perfect. Thank you so much. And I'm just wondering if there were any stories that you know, any specific stories that he would have told either your mother or yourself 

D: So, he talked about the Monte casino battle, and he said that was very tough, and that the fight against the Germans was very hard. And he remembers the I don't know if you know a bit much about that, but the Americans bombed the monastery on the top of the mountain for the hill. And he remembers seeing the planes going over and doing the bombing, and that he was wounded, actually there in that battle, but recovered, he talked about. So when I talked to him, I still sort of didn't know too much about military things, but, he talked about how friendly the Italian civilians were, and they used to always bring them grapes and things like that and bottles of wine and stuff. And he said that, 

M: And this was the civilians did you say?  

D: Yeah, and I think the rest of his probably played out with the history of the fourth, I think was the fourth Indian Division that was there and there, you know, there sort of movements. He would have been part of that in the fighting. But you know, if you want to go into the detail of what, you know. I did know a bit about the German army, and they said, oh, they're very, very good fighters, and they and the Italians and soldiers are pretty useless. The Germans, they really fought hard, yeah, and held on to their positions and things. 

M: How long was your grandfather in the military for? 

D: So he joined, I think they had a bit of a press gang when he was at school. I think he joined about, I think it was the 38 or 37 and fought all the way through the war. And then 1947 when they partitioned, it was all broken up. And then he went into the Indian Army for a while, and then he's in the Home Guard for a while. So he, I think he sounded like he was in there for a good 25/30 years, in some form. 

M: That's incredible. And did he speak of what it was like after the war? 

D: Yeah, one of the reasons why he joined the home garden things, was that the pensions and the things which they were getting from Britain ended. I think financially, it was they had to start from scratch again. And so that's why he kind of carried on in some sort of form, in sort of reserve military areas and things like that. So afterwards it was. They don't really complain about anything, even though there's like quite a lot of hardship and a lot of things changing, but yeah, they didn't moan about anything. They just sort of got on with it. 

M: Did he talk about it like his time in the army a lot? 

D: I think because I was so young, he didn't talk about a lot of the details, but everybody knew that he'd been in the army, and that he'd done, you know, gone to Europe, which only a few of the units went to Europe, because I think most and were in the Japan, in the sort of in the Japan, Burma area. And we were always used to be amazed that how, you know, how he, in the in the 1940s ended up in Europe. And that was all fascinating. But in terms of the lower level details, we never went into that, but, yeah. So, he's involved in sort of that heavy fighting, and that might be quite interesting to people in, you know, like English people that the Indian soldiers did come over. Like I was always surprised about the Indian troops, which came over the first board was, well, I remember I went on a school trip to Ypres, and there's a memorial. Menin gate, they call it, and when I started reading would regiment some people that had fallen like Punjab regimen and Sikh regimen, and all these are on there. I thought, what on earth were they doing here? But when I read a bit more about it, realised that they'd all come over here. So that kind of thing might be quite useful for people to know about. 

M: Yeah. So I think it's really common actually, in terms of a lot of English people, or people that were raised in England, not realising how many people from pre partition India fought in the war.  

D: We need to sort of help out a bit on things like that. That's kind of a bit of my interest area about the army and in particular the Indian Army and pre partition army. 

M: And I've just got a few more questions if you've still got some time. So, with your grandfather, Gurmukh Singh, do you know where he was first stationed?  

D: Like, where, like, where he was sent first for combat?  

D: He spent quite a lot of time in in so first few years, I think in India. Then they decided some of the fighting started up in in the Middle East. So, I didn't even know that there was, fighting in Syria. Syria, I think joined on the German side. I think they were getting help. So, I think they went through there and took over that Syria, Iraq area. They stay, you know, they kind of stabilised that area. Then they must have gone from Egypt into Italy. But my mum mentions them going to Portugal for some kind of training or something. I think that they might have gone there for, you know, kind of like before they went to invaded Italy, they might have used that as kind of kind of staging post, or something like that. But I don't know much about that one. 

M: When your grandfather was telling you about the war, did he make any long term friendships after, whilst he was there, or after leaving the military? 

D: I think, with the Indian troops, he did. I remember somebody ---  wasn't my grandfather, but somebody who knew my grandfather. He then became a senior officer in the post partition army. I think he might become a Brigadier, a general, and he knew a British, senior British officer in England and when he visited England, he came to our house. I was only about six or seven or something, and I remember my dad and this chap from India, this officer, going visiting him in Kent and they, and this, this British office, had all the memorabilia of all the of all the Indian army. It was amazing. So some of the people that that came over, when the British left in 47 they then got jobs ---- the senior people got jobs as factory managers, and things I've had, and that's apparently what a lot of the people that went to Southhall did, I think there's a rubber factory, where the guy that ran it knew the Sikhs, and he employed a load of them. I think when my dad worked in the Imperial paper mills, they employed a lot of people from India and I think that, and my dad said, I remember when I was in India, when he went to university, and the paper, the company's paper, the name was on the paper of their books and things like that. So connections, yeah, or nobody sort of really talked about it. 

D: You hear stories of when in the 60s, there was sort of this, you can't wear a turban on if you drive the busses or things like that. Winston Churchill intervened and said, look, I've, you know, I fought with these people, and they, they've stood by us into two world wars statement. I remember reading that, you know, people had sort of connections that way.  

M: And with my next question links a little bit to that. were there any differences in the way that the Indian soldiers and the British soldiers were treated? 

D: Once again, they don't complain. They were very keen on recruiting the Sikhs, the British, so they treated them quite well. My grandfather said they went to where the school was and looked at the people that all above six foot, all the kids, and said look,  

M: We have seen that through the research that we've done already, that Sikhs, well Punjab generally, but Sikhs specifically were the biggest group of volunteers for the First and Second World War.  

D: So whatever religion they were, Sikhs, batons from the sort of Frontier type area that they're the ones they recruited the most, 

M: And did he say what it was like Serving under the British command? 

D: They're quite happy. He said that there was no bad treatment and they got paid reasonably well, and they were well looked after. I think one thing that I do remember hearing was that letters back home that they would it was difficult to keep in contact with home. I don't know if they censored letters or something, or they just didn't organize things very well for the Indian soldiers. Yes, I remember my mum saying that for year, for the few years that he was in Europe, they didn't know whether he was dead or alive. And when they came back home, actually, this is a story. They on the radio. They announced the names of the soldiers that had arrived back in India, and they all listened in to hear and what did my mum say? Oh, yeah, my grandmother. My grandmother, yeah, grandmother, she fainted when she heard his name. 

M: I didn't realize that that was they announced all the names on the radio when they were coming back to the war. That must have been such an emotional moment.  

D: It really was, I think they got a band, you know, military band, yeah, and they went to collect them, and they marched back to their homes. 

D: So I don't think they have that leave process must be that they, you know, like you hear the British soldiers, they spent some time out, and then they were allowed home for a while. Yes, I don't think they must have had that option, they probably didn't have that.  

M: Did your grandfather receive any honours or medals or recognition for his service? 

D: He did have medals, but I don't know what, which ones they were, I don't think they were not the top ones. But I think they're not all of the, all of the people out there, they're not, sort of, don't put these things on display or, like, don't show that. You know, we did 

M: Would you say his time serving for the pre partition military had an effect on his life after the war? 

D: I think something that might have happened was that, because he's away and always in the army, yes. Maybe the sort of home side of things was a bit neglected, like not neglected but because he wasn't there. So, the children, my mum, growing up, you know, she spent most war without him, things like that, and some of the sort of commercial side, you know, what people are like out there with land and things. Get brothers who sort of said, oh, we'll look after all the land. And then, you know, there's kind of disputes happening and things like that. 

M: You spoke about your grandmother who wasn't sure for quite a few years if he was alive, because there was no correspondence in terms of getting letters back and forth. What was it like? Did he ever tell you what it felt like when he did finally get to come home and see his family? 

D: He didn't personally, but I think from what it sounds like that, you know, the big gathering of the village and the band, it was, must have been quite an emotional moment. I remember them say that they went to one of the gondola, big Sikh temple. They went there, and they did a big offering there for, sort of thanks, Thanksgiving. 

M: Will there have been other people from the same village that were a part of the military? 

D: Not from their regiment. I think he was the only one in the in that Sikh regiment. I think there were others.  

M: Do you know what Sikh regiment he was in by any chance? 

D: Yes so he was in the11th Sikh regiment, the third battalion, and that's the one that's known as the 45th rat phrase. 

M: And this is the last question that I've got. How do you feel about India's role in the Second World War? Do you think it is as like well-remembered as it should be in today's society? 

D: I think it's not known enough. There's been some effort, you know, kind of individuals have done a bit of effort to get information out there, but it's not got the kind of coverage that say the Australians got, or the Canadian soldiers got, you know, they were always kind of left out.